Quote# 135030

Good point Mel. I've been interested in the rapture since I was a little boy in the 1960's but now we are at the end of a generation and we are seeing the birth pains increasing with such frequency and intensity we know the "baby's birth" can't hold off much longer.

The Ezekiel 38-39 coalition of nations on the Golan Heights border is equally significant knowing the church most likely will not be present for that conflict. We are literally at the door. Just think tomorrow we could be walking around chatting with Peter, Mary and Jesus! How cool is that!

WVBORN56, Rapture Ready 3 Comments [12/10/2017 10:40:00 AM]
Fundie Index: 1
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 135029

First I think it is awesome that our President acknowledges Jerusalem as Israel's capitol! It has been long overdue in my opinion. HOWEVER, does anyone else see this delaying the rapture? After all when Israel gets invaded by the evil alliance don't they end up standing alone? Isn't it God Himself that saves them? If we are allies with Israel and we honor that obligation, which I think we should, then God isn't going it alone. Am I missing something?

Or, and this just popped into my mind, does the war happen AFTER the Rapture when the US is crippled by the good ones being raptured away (which I'm hoping would include our Pres and VP) ? I know there are prophecy students on both sides of that issue whether the war is pre-Rapture or post-Rapture. With everything going on in the M.E. right now making Damascus look like a big Israeli target, and the coalition of Gog/Magog/Persia there, IF the war is post-Rapture then man we have to be close! Better sign off before I get in trouble for date setting. Much to think about.

BAF, Rapture Ready 5 Comments [12/10/2017 10:39:51 AM]
Fundie Index: 3
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 135028

Video has resurfaced of Alabama U.S. Senate candidate Roy Moore making a speech in 1997 in which he links the teaching of evolution in schools with drive-by shootings.

“That’s the kind of logic they’ve used in our society today when we have kids driving by shooting each other that they don’t even know each other. They’re acting like animals because we’ve taught them they come from animals,” said Moore, who at the time was an Alabama Circuit judge. He was speaking at the “Role of Religion in the U.S. Government” conference hosted by the National Clergy Council.

Amanda Glaze, a professor who specializes in evolution education at Georgia Southern University, told Newsweek Friday that Moore’s 1997 statements were “inflammatory, ludicrous and unsubstantiated.”

About halfway into the 1997 speech, Moore joked, “Scientists who study evolution come up with some of the oddest things, don’t they? They tell us we evolved from something that crawled out of the water, but they have no evidence for that.”

Glaze countered that there is, in fact, good evidence for evolution. “Scientific evidence of evolution and development of species, and development within species, is extensive,” Glaze said, adding that detractors like Moore often have a limited focus on Charles Darwin’s work. “We have everything from biological evidence to DNA; we have the fossil records; we have 100 years of formal study of evolution post-Darwin’s time that explains descent with modification, that explains what evolution is.”

This is not the first time that Glaze has heard such arguments. In fact, it’s not the first time she has heard Moore’s 1997 speech.

“I was actually a sophomore in high school in Gadsden, Alabama, which is Roy Moore’s county,” said Glaze, who watched the speech when it first aired in 1997. The full speech is available for viewing on C-Span.

Moore’s office did not immediately respond to request for comment.

Roy Moore, Newsweek 10 Comments [12/10/2017 10:39:21 AM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: dxdydz

Quote# 135027

Amen!! Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. If the Lord tarries, I have children that need a future in this country. After the Lord, their only hope here is if Trump has enough time to drain a big portion of the swamp and appoint more judges, especially Supreme Court judges. After Trump, assuming we are still here, let’s pray that someone good, like VP Pence, comes after him.

I completely agree with you though that I cant see how we could be here in even 4 years. However, I said the exact same thing 18 years ago when I got saved and started longing for the Lord’s return! On top of all the biblical signs, I think we are on the verge of another technological revolution, robotics and AI, that will greatly blur what it means to be human - messing with the genome, etc. I just can’t imagine the Lord allowing that to go far - a lot of it is abominable. Has anyone seen that new robot that does those flips? Amazing!!!

mel018, Rapture Ready 7 Comments [12/10/2017 10:39:16 AM]
Fundie Index: 3
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 135026

Since they are disbelievers and deserve eternal punishment, it is not unfair that they suffer in this life as well. Whoever disbelieves deserves eternal punishment and whoever dies a disbeliever is guaranteed eternal punishment.

They have suffering in this life and unending suffering in the next. Another thing to consider is that compared to the punishment in the next, this this life is in comparison Paradise. But the point still stands-they deserve eternal punishment so there is no injustice for the suffering they go through in this life.

As for the ones who don't receive much pain in this life, they are in for more of a surprise when they enter it, but ultimately this was just Allah's relief and favor on them in this life. Since they too deserve eternal punishment and are guaranteed eternal punishment upon dying as nonbelievers. In conclusion, every kaffir deserves eternal punishment so there is no injustice in the fact that some suffer to varying degrees in this life as well. Each of them ultimately is in punishment forever.

May Allah guide us.

Mustafa Mahmud, Ummah 3 Comments [12/10/2017 10:39:11 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 135025

Thinking about the world maybe? Who created this world? Trying to identify the test. We've all testified that there is no God but Allah before we were born and perhaps some haven't been exposed to the truth.

The non-believers; Some trying to seek the truth, some living their life and others confused. Allah guides whom he wills. Allah has given us humans the free will to do what we want. Is it Allah's fault or is it their fault?

To the non-believers who are ill, what has caused them to be ill? Allah has. Allah gives them many opportunities to know who he is yet they're blind to it. Even through their sickness, Allah is giving them the opportunity to know why it's happening to them. Allah can guide and misguide whom he wills. Every single second of our life shows us the signs of Allah.

By observing and asking yourself did I create this or was it Allah who created this? To those who are in poverty, did Allah not give them eyes, legs, a brain etc? Did Allah not give them the process of thinking to discover who Allah is? Some on a math test, don't do good, some do not know and others know everything about it. Who's fault is it? Is it the teacher's fault or is it the student's fault?

Abu Qudamah, Ummah 3 Comments [12/10/2017 10:38:39 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 135024

People usually laugh when I tell them I am a convicted terrorist. I try not to open with that – it seems a little bit forward. First, I explain how my friend Tyler and I entered a fur farm in the dead of night. I describe the unspeakable suffering we found there. I tell people how Tyler and I opened every single cage and released 2,000 mink to save their lives. And once they have the context, I segue into the terrorism thing.

Now that I have been out of prison for more than a year, I can be a bit more lighthearted about it. But the seventh circuit court of appeals doesn’t see the humor. Last Wednesday, the court upheld the constitutionality of the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, the federal statute that put me away for three years and that my lawyers at the Center for Constitutional Rights have been trying to challenge for nearly a decade.

The Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act is a piece of designer legislation written and paid for by the agriculture and pharmaceutical industries. It federalizes non-violent property crime and punishes it as terrorism – but only when the perpetrators are motivated by the belief that animals deserve to live free from violence. The court explicitly stated that the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act did not apply to four Fresno, California, teenagers who sneaked into a Foster Farms facility and bludgeoned 900 chickens to death with a golf club because “they killed the chickens for no reason”.

Put succinctly, I am a terrorist not because of what I did, but because the government dislikes why I did it. I remember organizing my first protest, outside of the circus, in 2005. I was 19 years old. My friend and I argued with the police about whether our group could stand on a courtyard by the Staples Center and whether we could use megaphones. We asserted our rights, and we were successful.

That same year, the FBI declared animal rights activists to be the nation’s “number one domestic terrorism threat”. A year later, Congress passed the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act. Suddenly, I found myself being followed as I drove to work. My parents and siblings were harassed. My home was raided by the Joint Terrorism Task Force. Three times. We no longer argued with the police about where we could chant and hold our signs. The police brandished assault rifles, and we did as they said. Then, when we were done, they openly followed us back to our cars to photograph our license plates. While the rest of the nation took no notice, simply organizing a protest became a frightening prospect if you were an animal rights activist.

In this atmosphere, more and more of my friends stopped speaking out for animals. Countless times I heard people say they were scared of being placed on a list. More than once, someone told me they had canceled their subscriptions to animal-related magazines. The Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act achieved its intended outcome. When the distinguishing feature of a “terrorist” is simply an ethical concern for animals, such concerns become marginalized, and voicing them becomes dangerous. What remains is silence.

Now I watch as the rhetoric honed and the precedents established against animal rights activists are expanded to cover an increasingly broad swath of dissent. In Donald Trump’s America, states across the country are introducing legislation designed to bully and deter protesters. Some of these proposed laws include five-year prison sentences for protesters who block traffic.

Lawmakers in Arizona seek to charge protest groups as organized criminals, and seize their assets. In Oregon, a statute would automatically expel students who violate protest laws. Missouri wants to criminalize the use of costumes during protests. And, following the horrors of Charlottesville, lawmakers in half a dozen states have introduced legislation to indemnify drivers who run over protesters, as if the drivers were the ones in need of protection.

This is not how a free society operates. Our rights are meaningless if the government intimidates us out of using them. But as Wednesday’s decision makes clear, the judiciary will not protect us from such abuse. The court has legitimized the government’s use of the word “terrorism” to describe nearly any activity of which it disapproves – and emboldened lawmakers around the country who are beginning to do just that. It is evident that our leaders consider our speech and assembly a threat to their unencumbered exercise of power. Now, more than ever, we must show them that they are right.

Kevin Johnson, The Guardian 6 Comments [12/10/2017 10:38:35 AM]
Fundie Index: 0
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 134932

Joe Dallas equips listeners with the basic tools and concepts necessary for a Christ-like response to the Gay Christian identity. Joe brings us in for a transparent look at his journey from the downward spiral into sexual promiscuity to promoting the Gay Christian identity and finally to landing on the solid ground of his identity in Christ.

During Joe’s journey, The Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches was one of the first organizations that claimed both a Christian base and a pro-gay base and where he heard the pro-gay interpretation of scripture for the first time. He was confronted with men and women of all ages and all types who identified as Gay Christians. If you haven’t already, you will meet someone who says “I love Jesus, I have been born again, I believe the Bible is the word of God and I’m openly gay or I’m openly lesbian and God is fine with my lifestyle”. Joe’s in-depth teaching will better equip you to dialogue with people holding this position.

Joe begins with these terms and concepts to help us better understand and follow along with his discussion:

Gay Christian Identify – Terms and Concepts

Saved – born again and positioned in Christ
Gay – orientation, identity or behavior
“Gay is not as simplistic as a term as we might think it to be because it can refer either to an orientation or an identity or a behavior or a combination of all 3.”
Orientation – result of the sin nature – not a choice
Identity – alignment with a sinful tendency – is a choice
Behavior – erotic connection with same sex – is a choice
Five Point Progression

Discovery – deep feelings others don’t have
Conflict – lasts for a season “I didn’t ask to be gay”
Resolution Attempt – tried everything, “it” doesn’t work
Revision – to accommodate the temptation
Gay Christian Identity – adoption / embracing
Many people believe that if you are born again you will no longer have same sex attractions and desires. They often refer to the apostle Paul stating that “if any man is in Christ he is a new creation old things are passed away and all things become new” (2 Cor 5:17). While we do become new creations, the Bible also states that we will experience a struggle between the flesh and the spirit.

Joe puts it this way, “When someone tells me well I tried to pray the gay away and it didn’t happen. I would say who on Earth told you that was going to happen? All of us have sinful desires of the flesh sometimes we are completely relieved of those desires at other times we are allowed to still wrestle those desires. As time goes on they may diminish and other times they stay and at all times we are still told to crucify the flesh walk in the spirit and not live under the power of any particular sin.”

Joe’s teaching ends on a powerful note from Dr. Paul Morris who says, “but if I were a homosexual Christian this one question would bother me, am I interpreting scripture in the light of my proclivity or should I be interpreting my proclivity in the light of scripture?”

Joe Dallas, His Wonderful Works 4 Comments [12/10/2017 10:29:14 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: Christopher

Quote# 134929

(=A comment on his flat earth proof video=)

people have lots of information that is not helpful. In School they think it's helpful to put a globe in your class room and make crazy claims the Earth is flying through space at crazy speeds. it must be important to them to let us know we are cosmic nothings in a vast universe possibly filled with life, and without the big bang, and gravity creating round balls that orbit other round balls, evolution theory is impossible. It all ties in to make us think our ancestors use to be fish, that grew legs and tails and hung in tree's. That you are not that special, and have no real importance but just be be.?

Mike Helmick, Youtube  7 Comments [12/10/2017 9:10:00 AM]
Fundie Index: 4
Submitted By: Christopher

Quote# 134928

[The universe is bigger than you can wrap your head around]

That's fabricated. CGI. Do you have ANY IDEA how long they've been LOOKING?
Sending signals? Stars are NOT Sun's.
Finally we have real pictures taken with good equipment.
We saw what stars look like, not far. Proof. Look online.
You've sure swallowed lies made up to make you believe you're not important.
Then the elite take control.
Don't fool yourself.

2FollowHim, Y! answers 8 Comments [12/10/2017 9:05:32 AM]
Fundie Index: 7

Quote# 134927

Self-proclaimed “firefighter prophet” and right-wing conspiracy theorist Mark Taylor made another appearance on Dave Daubenmire’s “Pass The Salt Live” webcast this morning, where he proclaimed that President Trump will soon arrest so many high-profile pedophiles and satanists that it’ll require years of military-style tribunals to prosecute them all.

Claiming that there are nearly 5,000 sealed indictments in place against powerful leaders, Taylor asserted that Trump, who is “ten steps ahead of everybody,” has put the National Guard on notice to prepare for civil unrest in the wake of mass arrests. Taylor asserted that Bill and Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are among those set to be indicted, claiming that Attorney General Jeff Sessions is methodically building cases against them so that they cannot escape on any sort of technicality.

“This corruption goes so deep and so wide and so long that it is going to take military-style tribunals to deal with the treasonous acts that are being committed right now in the United States,” Taylor said. “You are going to see people get rounded up that are going to blow your mind.”

“The pedophilia and the child sacrifice thing, I think it is absolutely huge,” he added. “It is going to boggle the mind when they find out and start digging … Strap in, get ready for the ride because this is going to be going on for years, these military-style tribunals. They’re going to make Nuremberg look like a cakewalk.”

Mark Taylor, Right Wing Watch 15 Comments [12/10/2017 9:04:35 AM]
Fundie Index: 4
Submitted By: kuyohashi

Quote# 135019

As a mom of three young kids, I’m careful about what they’re exposed to on television, and I screen the shows they watch to confirm they reflect our family values of respect and courteousness. That’s why my kids are banned from watching the Disney Channel.

The Disney Channel and its spin-off, Disney XD, are no longer “safe spaces” for kids. The kid characters on Disney’s shows are often mouthy and disrespectful to parents and authority figures (who are usually scripted as muddle-headed and embarrassingly square). Even many of the strange animated characters make crass and nasty comments.

Shockingly, both my conservative and liberal parent friends tend to be angered by Disney’s programming. And in the Trump era, moms treasure these rare moments of bipartisan disgust.

Of course, some defend Disney, saying the company is only reflecting our culture and doing what all corporations do by responding to consumer demand. Yet maybe the company should reconsider caving in to the worst impulses of an immature demographic — Disney XD is designed for kids aged 6 to 14.

After all, Disney has another consumer to consider — the wearied parent battling modern culture to instill principles of kindness, politeness and respect of elders. This Sisyphean task is made more difficult when kids get a regular dose of vulgar speech, crude jokes and insolent behavior on a channel designed for kids.

If that isn’t enough, Disney has now decided to throw some sex and gender issues into the mix.

Small-screen shows like “Andi Mack” featured a tween character coming to terms with his own sexuality.

Disney is pushing boundaries even further by attempting to address the transgender issue.

On a recent episode of the Disney XD show “Star vs. the Forces of Evil,” a young boy dresses up as Princess Marco Turdina — get it? Turd-ina — in order to rescue a group of girls from the evil headmistress at St. Olga’s Reform School for Wayward Princesses. Sounds tame, right? Boy rescues girls, how traditional.

But when the boy is revealed to be — gasp! — a boy by the headmistress who reveals he has chest hair under his princess costume, the young girls rally around him and launch into the sort of social-justice lecture one might see playing out on the University of California, Berkeley campus.

The scene begins with the headmistress shouting, “Turdina isn’t a princess. She’s a boy!” To which the girls, responding to such a disgusting display of gender bigotry, offer a chorus of defense for Turdina, shouting down the headmistress with comments like:

“Why does it matter if he’s a boy? Nothing he said was wrong!” “He can be a princess if he wants to!” “Turdina is a state of mind!”

No doubt, Disney writers understood this scene would make parents uncomfortable, but what they didn’t understand is the nature of the discomfort.
Sure, some will be unhappy with the transgender-embracing message, but most will be more concerned that kids are being told it’s OK to shout down an adult.

Is that how we want children acting — shouting down authority figures? Oh, wait, they’re already doing that. Again, just look at our college campuses.

We hear a lot from the left about how corporations have a duty to make the world a better place for all mankind.

In response to activist pressure, most corporations give lavishly to environmental causes. Corporations are told they must diversify their workforce. As such, most major corporations, both old and new, have initiated a variety of badly managed “Corporate Diversity Programs” that have done nothing more than increase tension in the workforce.

Corporations do these things because the public demands it — and to avoid lawsuits.

When it comes to how parents feel and how most parents want to raise kids, Disney seems to think it has zero responsibility.

That’s not going to change until parents start pushing back — or, you know, start pushing the television’s “off” button when Disney comes on.

Julie Gunlock, New York Post 14 Comments [12/9/2017 11:07:27 AM]
Fundie Index: 3
Submitted By: Shakesmyhead

Quote# 135016

Re: Alpine Skiing: Lindsay Vonn Injured At St Moritz

Karma for talking shit about Trump,she's finished

Duncan the destroyer, Godlike Productions 7 Comments [12/9/2017 11:06:04 AM]
Fundie Index: 4

Quote# 135015

Today's churches are filled with bozo pastors who are as juggling fools...

This Bible, that Bible,
Pick one, pick all;
Doesn't matter, they say,
Because we don't have God's Word anyway.

How do you like the poetry I wrote? Like it or not, it's the truth!!! Amen! Only the King James Bible ONLY crowd proclaim that we have God's perfect, preserved, infallible, inspired and pure words today!!!

David J. Stewart, Soulwinning.info 13 Comments [12/9/2017 11:05:44 AM]
Fundie Index: 1

Quote# 135014

I am so tired and disgusted that the word “gay” has been forced on American society by militant homosexual activists.

Homosexuals are homosexual, not “gay!” And there is nothing gay about being homosexual!

The English language is specific: call homosexuals “homosexual,” America!

Taxman, Free Republic 10 Comments [12/9/2017 11:05:35 AM]
Fundie Index: 3
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 135013

A recent email from a friend: "Sue, I'm seeing more and more 'evangelical' churches come out in support of gay marriage. Also, Christian friends are changing their views on the validity of the LGBT lifestyle being acceptable for a Christ-follower. I start worrying that I'm missing something, and even start questioning my beliefs."

No, my dear friend, you are not missing something, but it is a good time to question (not doubt) your beliefs so you can be more convinced than ever that the Creator God has not changed and neither has His word.

I think there are two big reasons so many confessing believers in Christ have allowed themselves to be more shaped by the culture than by the truth of God's word, drifting into spiritual compromise and even into apostasy (abandoning the truth of one's faith). This is not a new problem; the apostle Paul urged his readers in Rome, "Don't let the world around you squeeze you into its own mold, but let God re-mold your minds from within. . ." (Romans 12:2, Phillips).

Reason One: Rejecting the Authority of God's Word

The bitter fruit of several decades of shallow preaching, teaching and discipleship is that many believers have been especially vulnerable to Satan's deceptive question to Eve in the Garden of Eden: "Did God really say . . .?" When Christians ignore or flat-out reject the unmistakably clear biblical statements condemning homosexual relationships, they are playing into the enemy's temptation to justify disobedience by making feelings and perceptions more important than God's design and standards.

There are now two streams of thought on same-sex relationships and behavior, the Traditional View and the Revisionist View. The Revisionist View basically says, "It doesn't matter what the Bible actually says, it doesn't mean what 2000 years of church history has said it means, it means what we want it to say."

People are redefining the Bible, gender and marriage according to what will let them do what they want, when they should (in my opinion) be asking the insightful question posed by Paul Mooris in Shadow of Sodom, "[A]m I trying to interpret Scripture in the light of my proclivity, or should I interpret my proclivity in the light of Scripture?"

The Bible:
Traditional View
The Bible is inspired by a Holy God and is inherently true and trustworthy. The Bible is written by men, but divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit and is sealed by a God of truth and authority.
Revisionist View
The scriptures which traditional Christianity understands to condemn homosexuality [such as Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:9-10] have either been mistranslated, yanked out of context or were only appropriate to the culture of that time. Therefore, we no longer have to follow passages we don't like.

Sexuality:
Traditional View
Sexuality and sex are God's good gifts to men and women. While sexuality is an essential attribute of human nature, our Creator did not intend it to be the defining characteristic of humanity.
Revisionist View
Sexuality—the feelings and attractions one feels for other people—is God ordained, diverse, deeply personal and morally permissible. One's sexual orientation, whatever it is, should be celebrated as one of God's good gifts.

Gender:
Traditional View
God created both male and female in His image, and each gender reflects different aspects of the imago Dei. God's sovereign choice of gender for every person reflects His intention for that person's identity; it is one of the ways in which he or she glorifies Him as Creator.
Revisionist View
We are free to make a distinction between sex and gender. Sex is biological maleness or femaleness at birth, and gender is how one feels about their "true" maleness or femaleness internally. Based on Galatians 3:28, "there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Marriage:
Traditional View
Marriage is God-ordained between one man and one woman in a lifelong, monogamous, covenantal relationship. The Bible begins with the marriage of Adam and Eve, and ends with the marriage of the Lamb (Jesus) and the Bride (the church). The complementarity of husband and wife express God's intention of both genders in marriage.
Revisionist View
Homosexual behavior is appropriate within the confines of a committed, loving, monogamous, lifelong, Christ-centered relationship.

Both individual Christians and churches have drifted into endorsing same-sex relationships because it always feels better to follow one's flesh than to follow Jesus' call to "deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Me" (Matt. 16:24).

Reason Two: Snagged by the Gay Agenda

In addition to those several decades of shallow preaching, teaching and discipleship I mentioned earlier, many believers have not been submitting themselves to the truth of the Word of God. By default, then, they were easily shaped and swayed by the six points of a brilliantly designed "Gay Manifesto" spelled out in a book called After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90s. Originally published as an essay called "The Overhauling of Straight America" that was published in a gay magazine, the authors laid out this plan which has been executed perfectly in the United States. (The quotes below are from the essay, found here)

1. Desensitization and normalization of homosexuals in mainstream America. Talk about gays and gayness as loudly and often as possible.

"The principle behind this advice is simple: almost any behavior begins to look normal if you are exposed to enough of it at close quarters and among your acquaintances.

"In the early stages of any campaign to reach straight America, the masses should not be shocked and repelled by premature exposure to homosexual behavior itself. Instead, the imagery of sex should be downplayed and gay rights should be reduced to an abstract social question as much as possible. First let the camel get his nose inside the tent—only later his unsightly derriere!"

2. Portray members of the LGBTQ community as victims. Indoctrinate mainstream America that members of the LGBTQ community were "born this way."

"In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be cast as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to assume the role of protector."

"Now, there are two different messages about the Gay Victim that are worth communicating. First, the mainstream should be told that gays are victims of fate, in the sense that most never had a choice to accept or reject their sexual preference. The message must read: 'As far as gays can tell, they were born gay, just as you were born heterosexual or white or black or bright or athletic. Nobody ever tricked or seduced them; they never made a choice, and are not morally blameworthy. What they do isn't willfully contrary - it's only natural for them. This twist of fate could as easily have happened to you!'"

3. Give protectors a just cause: anti-discrimination

"Our campaign should not demand direct support for homosexual practices, should instead take anti-discrimination as its theme."

4. The use of TV, music, film and social media to desensitize mainstream Americans to their plight as gay people

Over the past 25 years, gay characters, on TV especially, have captured the hearts of American viewers because they were attractive, funny, smart—the kind of characters viewers would like to be. No one was shown the dark underside of gay bars and bathhouses, or same-sex domestic violence, or having to get one's HIV+ status checked.

5. Portray gays and lesbians as pillars in society. Make gays look good.

"From Socrates to Shakespeare, from Alexander the Great to Alexander Hamilton, from Michelangelo to Walt Whitman, from Sappho to Gertrude Stein, the list is old hat to us but shocking news to heterosexual America. In no time, a skillful and clever media campaign could have the gay community looking like the veritable fairy godmother to Western Civilization."

Use celebrities and celebrity endorsement. And who doesn't love Ellen DeGeneres?

6. Once homosexuals have begun to gain acceptance, anti-gay opponents must be vilified, causing them to be viewed as repulsive outcasts of society.

"Our goal is here is twofold. First, we seek to replace the mainstream's self-righteous pride about its homophobia with shame and guilt. Second, we intend to make the antigays look so nasty that average Americans will want to dissociate themselves from such types.

"The public should be shown images of ranting homophobes whose secondary traits and beliefs disgust middle America. These images might include: the Ku Klux Klan demanding that gays be burned alive or castrated; bigoted southern ministers drooling with hysterical hatred to a degree that looks both comical and deranged; menacing punks, thugs, and convicts speaking coolly about the 'fags' they have killed or would like to kill; a tour of Nazi concentration camps where homosexuals were tortured and gassed."

This is how I see how we got to this place where so many people have been deceived. They didn't anchor themselves to the Truth of the Word of God, and they opened themselves to the cultural brine of Kirk and Madsen's plan to overhaul straight America.

And it worked.

I will close with three personal observations about this situation:

Christians have bought into the culture's worship of feelings over God's unchanging revelation
People love how being a protector of the underdog makes them feel
Not enough of us Christ-followers are living lives that demonstrate the beauty and satisfaction of abiding in Christ
To my sweet friend who asked the question, let me say: God's good gift of sex and the intimacy of the marriage relationship is still intended ONLY for one man and one woman for life. In the beginning, one (Adam) became two (when God formed Eve from Adam), and then the two became one again. That is a deep mystery that makes all variations and deviations on God's intention wrong.

I am indebted to Hope Harris for her insight and analysis of this question.

Sue Bohlin, Bible.org 9 Comments [12/9/2017 11:05:12 AM]
Fundie Index: 1
Submitted By: Christopher

Quote# 135012

Sue Bohlin looks a common myths concerning homosexual behavior that are prevalent in our society. These myths prevent us from looking at homosexuality with a biblical worldview and from dealing with this sin in a loving and consistent manner.

In this essay we’ll be looking at some of the homosexual myths that have pervaded our culture, and hopefully answering their arguments. Much of this material is taken from Joe Dallas’ excellent book, A Strong Delusion: Confronting the “Gay Christian” Movement.{1} While the information in this essay may prove helpful, it is our prayer that you will be able to share it calmly and compassionately, remembering that homosexuality isn’t just a political and moral issue; it is also about people who are badly hurting.

10% of the Population Is Homosexual.

In 1948, Dr. Alfred Kinsey released a study called Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, claiming that between 10 and 47% of the male population was homosexual.{2} He got his figures from a pool of 5,300 male subject that he represented as your average “Joe College” student. Many of the men who gave him the data, though, actually consisted of sex offenders, prisoners, pimps, hold-up men, thieves, male prostitutes and other criminals, and hundreds of gay activists.{3} The 10% figure was widely circulated by Harry Hay, the father of the homosexual “civil rights” movement, urging that homosexuality be seen no longer as an act of sodomy but as a 10% minority class.{4}

Kinsey’s figures were exposed as completely false immediately afterwards, and by many other scientists since. The actual figure is closer to 2-3%.{5} But the 10% number has been so often reported in the press that most people think it’s valid. It’s not.

People Are Born Gay.

Ann Landers said it, and millions of people believe it. The problem is, the data’s not there to support it. There are three ways to test for inborn traits: twin studies, brain dissections, and gene “linkage” studies.{6} Twin studies show that something other than genetics must account for homosexuality, because nearly half of the identical twin studied didn’t have the same sexual preference. If homosexuality were inherited, identical twins should either be both straight or both gay. Besides, none of the twin studies have been replicated, and other twin studies have produced completely different results.{7} Dr. Simon LeVay’s famous study on the brains of dead subjects yielded questionable results regarding its accuracy. He wasn’t sure of the sexual orientation of the people in the study, and Dr. LeVay even admits he doesn’t know if the changes in the brain structures were the cause *of* homosexuality, or caused *by* homosexuality.{8} Finally, an early study attempting to show a link between homosexuality and the X-chromosome has yet to be replicated, and a second study actually contradicted the findings of the first.{9} Even if homosexuality were someday proven to be genetically related, *inborn* does not necessarily mean *normal*. Some children are born with cystic fibrosis, but that doesn’t make it a normal condition.

Inborn tendencies toward certain behaviors (such as homosexuality) do not make those behaviors moral. Tendencies toward alcoholism, obesity, and violence are now thought to be genetically influenced, but they are not good behaviors. People born with tendencies toward these behaviors have to fight hard against their natural temptations to drunkenness, gluttony, and physical rage.

And since we are born as sinners into a fallen world, we have to deal with the consequences of the Fall. Just because we’re born with something doesn’t mean it’s normal. It’s not true that “God makes some people gay.” All of us have effects of the Fall we need to deal with.

What’s Wrong with Two Loving, Committed Men or Women Being Legally Married?

There are two aspects to marriage: the legal and the spiritual. Marriage is more than a social convention, like being “best friends” with somebody, because heterosexual marriage usually results in the production of children. Marriage is a legal institution in order to offer protection for women and children. Women need to have the freedom to devote their time and energies to be the primary nurturers and caretakers of children without being forced to be breadwinners as well. God’s plan is that children grow up in families who provide for them, protect them, and wrap them in security.

Because gay or lesbian couples are by nature unable to reproduce, they do not need the legal protection of marriage to provide a safe place for the production and raising of children. Apart from the sexual aspect of a gay relationship, what they have is really “best friend” status, and that does not require legal protection.

Of course, a growing number of gay couples are seeking to have a child together, either by adoption, artificial insemination, or surrogate mothering. Despite the fact that they have to resort to an outside procedure in order to become parents, the presence of adults plus children in an ad hoc household should not automatically secure official recognition of their relationship as a family. There is a movement in our culture which seeks to redefine “family” any way we want, but with a profound lack of discernment about the long-term effects on the people involved. Gay parents are making a dangerous statement to their children: lesbian mothers are saying that fathers are not important, and homosexual fathers are saying that mothers are not important. More and more social observers see the importance of both fathers and mothers in children’s lives; one of their roles is to teach boys what it means to be a boy and teach girls what it means to be a girl.

The other aspect of marriage is of a spiritual nature. Granted, this response to the gay marriage argument won’t make any difference to people who are unconcerned about spiritual things, but there are a lot of gays who care very deeply about God and long for a relationship with Him. The marriage relationship, both its emotional and especially its sexual components, is designed to serve as an earthbound illustration of the relationship between Christ and His bride, the church.{10} Just as there is a mystical oneness between a man and a woman, who are very different from each other, so there is a mystical unity between two very different, very “other” beings–the eternal Son of God and us mortal, creaturely humans. Marriage as God designed it is like the almost improbable union of butterfly and buffalo, or fire and water. But homosexual relationships are the coming together of two like individuals; the dynamic of unity and diversity in heterosexual marriage is completely missing, and therefore so is the spiritual dimension that is so intrinsic to the purpose of marriage. Both on an emotional and a physical level, the sameness of male and male, or female and female, demonstrates that homosexual relationships do not reflect the spiritual parable that marriage is meant to be. God wants marriage partners to complement, not to mirror, each other. The concept of gay marriage doesn’t work, whether we look at it on a social level or a spiritual one.

Jesus Said Nothing about Homosexuality.

Whether from a pulpit or at a gay rights event, gay activists like to point out that Jesus never addressed the issue of homosexuality; instead, He was more interested in love. Their point is that if Jesus didn’t specifically forbid a behavior, then who are we to judge those who engage in it?

This argument assumes that the Gospels are more important than the rest of the books in the New Testament, that only the recorded sayings of Jesus matter. But John’s gospel itself assures us that it is not an exhaustive record of all that Jesus said and did, which means there was a lot left out!{11} The gospels don’t record that Jesus condemned wife-beating or incest; does that make them OK? Furthermore, the remaining books of the New Testament are no less authoritative than the gospels. All scripture is inspired by God, not just the books with red letters in the text. Specific prohibitions against homosexual behavior in Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 are every bit as God-ordained as what is recorded in the gospels.

We do know, however, that Jesus spoke in specific terms about God’s created intent for human sexuality: “From the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and the two shall be one flesh. . . What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matt. 19:4-6). God’s plan is holy heterosexuality, and Jesus spelled it out.

The Levitical laws against homosexual behavior are not valid today.

Leviticus 18:22 says, “Thou shalt not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination.” Gay theologians argue that the term “abomination” is generally associated with idolatry and the Canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution, and thus God did not prohibit the kind of homosexuality we see today.

Other sexual sins such as adultery and incest are also prohibited in the same chapters where the prohibitions against homosexuality are found. All sexual sin is forbidden by both Old and New Testament, completely apart from the Levitical codes, because it is a moral issue. It is true that we are not bound by the rules and rituals in Leviticus that marked Yahweh’s people by their separation from the world; however, the nature of sexual sin has not changed because immorality is an affront to the holiness and purity of God Himself. Just because most of Leviticus doesn’t apply to Christians today doesn’t mean none of it does.

The argument that the word “abomination” is connected with idolatry is well answered by examining Proverbs 6:16-19, which describes what else the Lord considers abominations: a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises evil imaginations, feet that are swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaks lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers. Idolatry plays no part in these abominations. The argument doesn’t hold water.

If the practices in Leviticus 18 and 20 are condemned because of their association with idolatry, then it logically follows that they would be permissible if they were committed apart from idolatry. That would mean incest, adultery, bestiality, and child sacrifice (all of which are listed in these chapters) are only condemned when associated with idolatry; otherwise, they are allowable. No responsible reader of these passages would agree with such a premise.{12}

Calling Homosexuality a Sin Is Judging, and Judging Is a Sin.

Josh McDowell says that the most often-quoted Bible verse used to be John 3:16, but now that tolerance has become the ultimate virtue, the verse we hear quoted the most is “Judge not, lest ye be judged” (Matt. 7:1). The person who calls homosexual activity wrong is called a bigot and a homophobe, and even those who don’t believe in the Bible can be heard to quote the “Judge not” verse.

When Jesus said “Do not judge, or you too will be judged,” the context makes it plain that He was talking about setting ourselves up as judge of another person, while blind to our own sinfulness as we point out another’s sin. There’s no doubt about it, there is a grievous amount of self-righteousness in the way the church treats those struggling with the temptations of homosexual longings. But there is a difference between agreeing with the standard of Scripture when it declares homosexuality wrong, and personally condemning an individual because of his sin. Agreeing with God about something isn’t necessarily judging.

Imagine I’m speeding down the highway, and I get pulled over by a police officer. He approaches my car and, after checking my license and registration, he says, “You broke the speed limit back there, ma’am.” Can you imagine a citizen indignantly leveling a politically correct charge at the officer: “Hey, you’re judging me! Judge not, lest ye be judged!'” The policeman is simply pointing out that I broke the law. He’s not judging my character, he’s comparing my behavior to the standard of the law. It’s not judging when we restate what God has said about His moral law, either. What is sin is to look down our noses at someone who falls into a different sin than we do. That’s judging.

The Romans 1 Passage on Homosexuality Does Not Describe True Homosexuals, but Heterosexuals Who Indulge in Homosexual Behavior That Is Not Natural to Them.

Romans 1:26-27 says, “God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” Some gay theologians try to get around the clear prohibition against both gay and lesbian homosexuality by explaining that the real sin Paul is talking about here is straight people who indulge in homosexual acts, because it’s not natural to them. Homosexuality, they maintain, is not a sin for true homosexuals.

But there is nothing in this passage that suggests a distinction between “true” homosexuals and “false” ones. Paul describes the homosexual behavior itself as unnatural, regardless of who commits it. In fact, he chooses unusual words for men and women, Greek words that most emphasize the biology of being a male and a female. The behavior described in this passage is unnatural for males and females; sexual orientation isn’t the issue at all. He is saying that homosexuality is biologically unnatural; not just unnatural to heterosexuals, but unnatural to anyone.

Furthermore, Romans 1 describes men “inflamed with lust” for one another. This would hardly seem to indicate men who were straight by nature but experimenting with gay sex.{13} You really have to do some mental gymnastics to make Romans 1 anything other than what a plain reading leads us to understand all homosexual activity is sin.

Preaching Against Homosexuality Causes Gay Teenagers to Commit Suicide.

I received an e-mail from someone who assured me that the blood of gay teenagers was on my hands because saying that homosexuality is wrong makes people kill themselves. The belief that gay teenagers are at high risk for suicide is largely inspired by a 1989 report by a special federal task force on youth and suicide. This report stated three things; first, that gay and lesbian youths account for one third of all teenage suicides; second, that suicide is the leading cause of death among gay teenagers, and third, gay teens who commit suicide do so because of “internalized homophobia” and violence directed at them.{14} This report has been cited over and over in both gay and mainstream publications.

San Francisco gay activist Paul Gibson wrote this report based on research so shoddy that when it was submitted to Dr. Louis Sullivan, the former Secretary of Health and Human Services, Dr. Sullivan officially distanced himself and his department from it.{15} The report’s numbers, both its data and its conclusions, are extremely questionable. Part of the report cites an author claiming that as many as 3,000 gay youths kill themselves each year. But that’s over a thousand more than the total number of teen suicides in the first place! Gibson exaggerated his numbers when he said that one third of all teen suicides are committed by gay youth. He got this figure by looking at gay surveys taken at drop- in centers for troubled teens, many of which were gay-oriented, which revealed that gay teens had two to four times the suicidal tendencies of straight kids. Gibson multiplied this higher figure by the disputed Kinsey figure of a 10% homosexual population to produce his figure that 30% of all youth suicides are gay. David Shaffer, a Columbia University psychiatrist who specializes in teen suicides, pored over this study and said, “I struggled for a long time over Gibson’s mathematics, but in the end, it seemed more hocus-pocus than math.”{16}

The report’s conclusions are contradicted by other, more credible reports. Researchers at the University of California-San Diego interviewed the survivors of 283 suicides for a 1986 study. 133 of those who died were under 30, and only 7 percent were gay and they were all over 21. In another study at Columbia University of 107 teenage boy suicides, only three were known to be gay, and two of those died in a suicide pact. When the Gallup organization interviewed almost 700 teenagers who knew a teen who had committed suicide, not one mentioned sexuality as part of the problem. Those who had come close to killing themselves mainly cited boy-girl problems or low self-esteem.{17}

Gibson didn’t use a heterosexual control group in his study. Conclusions and statistics are bound to be skewed without a control group. When psychiatrist David Shaffer examined the case histories of the gay teens who committed suicides in Gibson’s report, he found the same issues that straight kids wrestle with before suicide: “The stories were the same: a court appearance scheduled for the day of the death; prolonged depression; drug and alcohol problems; etc.”{18}

That any teenager experiences so much pain that he takes his life is a tragedy, regardless of the reason. But it’s not fair to lay the responsibility for gay suicides, the few that there are, on those who agree with God that it’s wrong and harmful behavior.


Sue Bohlin, Probe 4 Comments [12/9/2017 11:05:08 AM]
Fundie Index: 2

Quote# 135011

Amos Moses:
North Korea nuclear blast IMMINENT? US deploys 'nuke sniffer’ as WW3 on brink
he is one of yours ..... or is this going to be "No True Scotsman" ..... erm .... No True A-Theist .............

Silas Jennings:
There is no such thing as no true atheist, nor a-theist.

Amos Moses:
yeah .... and no true scotsman .... RIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT ...........

Silas Jennings:
No True Scotsman applies to ANYBODY who thinks they are the ones who get to say who is a true or false member of whatever group you want to name. You do it constantly, saying group X is not really Christian because they practice Y.

Amos Moses:
SO IT DOES APPLY TO A-THEISTS ..... thanx for your opinion ..... we agree on something .....
"You do it constantly, saying group X is not really Christian because they practice Y"
NOPE .... i say it because they DONT hold a certain CHRISTIAN BELIEF that is CENTRAL to being a CHRISTIAN .....
tofu and turkey ..... NOT THE SAME THING ..... now you can make tofu LOOK LIKE TURKEY ..... but guess what .... IT AINT TURKEY ...... and you can label it ALL DAY LONG AS TURKEY ..... but it AINT ...... and the same applies to PHONEY CHRISTIANS .........
also appies to your PHONEY argument that it applies to christianity ..... when it does not .......

Silas Jennings:
If an atheist was practicing snobbery by telling another atheist he wasn’t a true atheist? Yeah, technically I guess it could happen, but it never does. Probably because atheism isn’t a religion.

Amos Moses:
so when you go to McDonalds ..... and you ask for a Quarter Pounder with cheese ..... and you get your order ..... and you open it ..... and there is just a bun with ketchup and mustard and onions ...... and you go back and say "Where is my burger and my cheese" .... thats just YOU BEING A SNOB ............ do you even get how stupid you sound ....... because the BURGER IS CENTRAL to it being a Quarter Pounder .....and so is the cheese you asked for on it ....

Silas Jennings:
Some Christians baptize infants. (In fact, MOST Christians baptize infants). You tell the MAJORITY of Christians who do this that they're not real Christians. But those Christians, using the SAME Bible you do, baptize infants, and can give you their scriptural backing for doing so.
But you don't care, and you aren't willing to listen to their reasons. You just say "False Christians" and walk away. THAT is No True Scotsman.
And you are now trying to take this ridiculous snobbery and apply it to atheists ("No true atheist"...WHAT???) and hamburgers? Face it, you do NOT UNDERSTAND this fallacy despite several very clear examples and are grasping now to try to save face.

Amos Moses, Christian News Network 10 Comments [12/9/2017 10:56:33 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: Jocasta

Quote# 135007

This is probably one of the darkest aspects of my worldview that I don't like to talk about. Our society has become way, way too dysgenic. It's even become trendy on the Right to adopt babies with autism and down syndrome in order to boost your anti-abortion, anti-Nazi street cred... It all started around the same time that Sarah Palin decided to give birth to her child even though she knew that it had down syndrome. Giving birth to a handicapped baby or adopting a handicapped baby is like the Right's version of adopting African babies.
Parents have an irrational attachment to their severely handicapped children. I won't link any pictures because it's so disturbing, but parents are actually choosing to give birth to babies with harlequin-type ichthyosis even though it's an absolutely horrific birth defect where the infant will suffer horribly before they die - and all because abortion = murder/eugenics/Nazism. These babies literally look like they were born inside out...
The state absolutely has to intervene in the cases of severe birth defects, especially if the birth defects are genetically caused, because most modern parents simply will not give up on their kids no matter how screwed up they are.
One of my ex-girlfriends in college was studying to become a special needs teacher, and her and I would do volunteer work at a center for kids with severe mental and physical disabilities. I was always polite and friendly on the outside when we went there, but on the inside seeing so much suffering was tearing me apart emotionally. These severely handicapped kids were literally vegetables that were going to be stuck in their wheelchairs and looked after like infants for their entire lives. Not only were they physically handicapped, but they were mentally handicapped as well. They had absolutely no idea what was going on around them, they couldn't feed themselves, they were drooling constantly, they had to wear diapers, et cetera. It fucking tears me up just thinking about how many centers like this exist across the world.
Taking care of these types of people probably destroys entire families simply because they require so much effort and attention to look after. And they also cost an absolute fortune to care for. My friend's brother has severe epilepsy and autism, and he told me that his generic anti-seizure medication costed several thousand dollars per month... And something ridiculous like 60 million Americans are on disability. And anyone that understands the forbidden science of dysgenics knows that this problem is just going to get worse and worse every year.
The state needs to start stepping in, doing the necessary evil, and then the parents can simply try again.
I also support humane versions of eugenics - such as genome sequencing, embryo selection, precision gene editing, and early term abortion - in order to solve 99% of this problem.

Certified Rabbi, Reddit 13 Comments [12/9/2017 12:16:28 AM]
Fundie Index: 2

Quote# 135006

If I were black, I wouldn't want non-black immigration to Africa. If I were white, I wouldn't want non-white immigration to Europe. I don't hate these other races or groups, but simply love my own, which are East Asians. Rather I'm a proponent of universal nationalism, in where each distinct group of people not only have the right, but must exercise that right for self-determination, all the while respecting that same basic right granted to other groups; maximizing cooperation when mutually beneficial, but never exploit or oppress other groups, which is a moral constraint that should and must be incorporated.

JCCheapEntertainment, Reddit 6 Comments [12/9/2017 12:15:50 AM]
Fundie Index: 5

Quote# 135005

I can’t imagine many white kids wanting to go to a school like Stuyvesant. Nerdy Asians and lots of ugly girls, no doubt. As you said, white parents will do private or suburb, as I would.

Jack, Lion of the Blogosphere 3 Comments [12/9/2017 12:15:42 AM]
Fundie Index: 2

Quote# 135004

(On the killing of Maren Sanchez)

the girl wasnt even attrcative. she was mannish looking. despite this, we’re no doubt going to hear feminist spiels on this about entitled guys trying to date out of their league. this girl is a prize in contemporary western society apparently:

James NSW, Lion of the Blogosphere 6 Comments [12/9/2017 12:15:36 AM]
Fundie Index: 5

Quote# 135003

Lion,

I’ve been an internet sensation for saying how overrated and beta Asians are, when compared to Jews on your blog.

http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=97400

Just love the defensive reactions coming from them. If it isn’t this, it’s their tiring complaints that America keeps Asians down via White privilege.



JS, Lion of the Blogosphere 5 Comments [12/9/2017 12:15:29 AM]
Fundie Index: 2

Quote# 135002

(On the killing of Maren Sanchez)

He was probably rejected in a very public and humiliating way. She probably ran her mouth in the wrong way instead of taking the path of least resistance.

map, Lion of the Blogosphere 6 Comments [12/9/2017 12:15:14 AM]
Fundie Index: 4

Quote# 135001

[NSFW: Gross subject matter]

Stalin 'used secret laboratory to analyse Mao's excrement'
by Steven Rosenburg

[...]

It is former Soviet agent Igor Atamanenko who claims to have uncovered this unusual project, while doing research in the archives of the Russian secret services.

"In those days the Soviets didn't have the kind of listening devices which secret services do today," he told the paper.

"That's why our specialists came up with the most extravagant ways of extracting information about a person."

Mr Atamanenko says it was Stalin's henchman Lavrenti Beria who was put in charge of the secret laboratory.

When I contacted Mr Atamanenko, he told me what the Soviet scientists had been looking for in fæces.

"For example, if they detected high levels of amino acid Tryptophan," he explained, "they concluded that person was calm and approachable. But a lack of potassium in poo was seen as a sign of a nervous disposition and someone with insomnia."

Mr Atamanenko claims that in December 1949, Soviet spies used this system to evaluate the Chinese leader Mao Zedong who was on a visit to Moscow. They had allegedly installed special toilets for Mao, which were connected not to sewers, but to secret boxes.

For 10 days Mao was plied with food and drink and his waste products whisked off for analysis. Once Mao's stools had been scrutinised and studied, Stalin reportedly poo poo-ed the idea of signing an agreement with him.

[...]

Extract from The Coldest Winter by journalist and historian David Halberstam:

When Mao first arrived in Moscow, he announced that China looked forward to a partnership with Russia, but he emphasised as well that he wanted to be treated as an equal.

Instead he was being taught a lesson each day. He had become, in Ulam's words, ''as much captive as guest".

As such, he shouted at the walls, convinced that Stalin had bugged the house: "I am here to do more than eat and shit."

Josef Stalin, BBC News 6 Comments [12/9/2017 12:15:04 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: Salami